Glen Kehrein and Pastor Abraham Washington have more in common than meets the eye. The self-described "techno-freaks" also both love fishing, and have taken numerous fishing trips to Canada together. They both have three children and live in Austin, a block from each other. Most importantly, they both have devoted their lives to serving in our community. The following excerpts from an interview reveals their thoughts on their friendship and the ministries they lead.

Fuller, printable transcript of interview (PDF format; Acrobat Reader required).

Read Glen and Pastor Washington's life stories

On the interdependence of Rock and Circle:

Glen: Circle Urban Ministries cannot really do holistic ministry because the spiritual piece requires the community of the church.... Leonard* is a great example. He was drawn into this holistic family. He came in through Circle looking for a job. He was drawn in, and now he's growing because of the teaching and involvement in the church. He quit drinking 10 years ago and he quit smoking 4 months ago. That to me is this mutual need and benefit.

Pastor Washington: Circle enables us to earn the right to evangelize. Being able to meet the physical, felt needs of people really is a frontline ministry of compassion. And what it does is in the heart of a person, is it prepares them to receive. And definitely the church has something to give. We have the gospel of Jesus Christ. But preparing the ground for that seed to bring change is important, and that's what Circle does. It's the rake that breaks up the fallow ground and the water that makes it receptive...

Circle makes it possible for us to see the real community that we want to have in the church. Most people when they come to church in black communities dress up for church. You have your Sunday best on, your Sunday best character, your Sunday best attitude... What Circle provides being a holistic ministry is the opportunity to see the hurt inside.

On the development of the Circle-Rock relationship:

Pastor: I think leadership development is one of the areas where we've really grown to the place where we're starting to produce leaders. We're beyond the place where we're just helping folks who are poor. We're beyond just seeing people get established and finding freedom from the dysfunction and the habits. We're really seeing folks start to bear fruit. And soon I believe we'll be at that stage where they'll be planting seeds after their own kind. That's when you really feel we're coming full circle; now it's just about multiplying.

Glen: For years as the church was being established -- and I always say, planting a church in the city is like plowing concrete -- the church received more than it gave to Circle, just because it was smaller, didn't have the resources, didn't have the people, and Circle had more. ...The church is growing and maturing and developing, and with Pastor Washington's leadership, is really getting a vision to be a contributor....You look at the men in the Transformation Home* and see that the potential of those guys, and how they are becoming contributors, the contribution that they will give back to the community, to Circle, to the church, is astronomical.

On the effectiveness of holistic ministry:

Pastor: Early on, we didn't see. It was more what we believed, it was a theory. But we've now grown to the place where we have enough evidence to say it works.

Glen: Exactly. When we started it, we just had to have faith that we know it's biblical, we know it's of God, we know it's going to work. Now, we can say, we have faith that it will work, but we have evidence that it is working, in the lives of the Dwaynes and the Leonards...

Pastor: Yeah, if you really want to know what holistic ministry is about, you don't have to ask the two guys that promote it. You can just sit down and start talking to the folks that have been a part of it. Their lives will be the example.

On the partnership's uniqueness:

Glen: If we were one organization, that is, a church with outreach programs, it wouldn't be as strong a model as having two separate organizations, two leaders that trust each other and can work together, but also are free enough to be independent and free enough to explore their vision together. ...It's two visions that the Lord has distinctly given, one to raise up a church and one to raise up a holistic ministry, and to be interdependent, yet with enough space and enough freedom to go after new ideas that the other person wouldn't necessarily think of and wouldn't necessarily think to embrace.

Pastor: The multi-cultural piece too. I think that's still a unique part about our church, that it's not just a church where we're bearing with each other and being civil, even in our partnership.

On the heart of their relationship:

Glen: I think the heart of our relationship is the trust that we have. It's not based on competition but it's based on trust. We really believe that each of us is genuine in our relationship... I really believe that Pastor Washington has Circle's best interests at heart.

Pastor: I never feel like I have to have a wall up in my relationship with Glen, like I have to be careful in this area or that area. I recognize that this is a person who really loves God, where even if we had any difficulty, it wouldn't go long because of the integrity you know that's there that's rooted in the Word of God. That helps you to see each other's gifts, too. You know, there are areas where Glen can pour into me.

On their mutual respect:

Glen: I do have experience in some areas that is different from Pastor's, and he is way in front of me in other areas. I think particularly as a spiritual leader, as a pastor... I can genuinely be pastored by him. Even though I am older and I've been involved in things longer, I see a perception and insight and a giftedness, a humility in spite of tremendous giftedness. That kind of humility in leadership is tremendous. So I think we have a deep respect for each other's giftedness and how we're made differently and we don't try to conform each other to be the other person...So it isn't the position, you know we've got to be working together in this partnership. It's coming out of a genuine relationship of give and take and trust and respect.

Pastor: When I first heard about Circle and Rock, I first started admiring Glen before I ever met him because of the statement that I heard. Raleigh was sharing about Circle/Rock, and was sharing about how he was in this place where this ministry had been started by a white guy, but how he submitted to Raleigh's leadership. When I heard that, I said, that doesn't exist in the world"

You look at most folks that have been in an area of ministry and have had the kind of exposure that Circle and Rock have had,...they would have used that for selfish gain more so than just promoting the kingdom. That makes it so easy to not only trust him and know that his heart is a genuine heart, but it's catchy, it gets in you, because you say, God I want to serve you with that kind of a pure heart, not looking to get anything out of ministry, just looking to give and knowing that God will bless you when you do that.

On race in their relationship:

Pastor: I don't think I see Glen as a white man. I couldn't have said that maybe four or five years ago. He is just a friend and a partner. There are times when we are meeting weekly and it's because of a look that someone will give that will remind me, oh, yeah, I am with a white guy.

Glen: We are always aware of the impact that race has on the issues that we're dealing with, but it is not an obstacle of our trust to each other. But people want to get there without paying the price of what it takes to build the trust.

*Leonard Greer is a Circle staff member, working in the buildings and grounds department.

*Transformation Home is a self-supporting home designed for men to overcome addictions and negative life patterns and learn disciplines to live godly, productive lives. While in the home, the men work in Circle's buildings and grounds department.